Aunt Sue

I know it was never official or anything but all my life I've had Uncle Merrill, Aunt Jeanne and Aunt Sue. So I'll be adding her here among the family - Good bye Aunt Sue.

***********************************************************************************

Susan “Sue” Eve Mieling, age 71, of Wheeling, passed away shortly after celebrating her birthday, on September 13, 2025. She was born in Des Plaines, Illinois, on September 4, 1954, and was a woman full of joy, creativity and life.

Sue worked for more than 30 years at Kraft Foods, where she built lasting friendships and a strong work ethic. Outside of work, her passions were endless. She loved baking, scrapbooking, reading, crafting and collecting. She enjoyed day trips with the Prospect Heights Park District, where she made many lifelong friends. A devoted Star Trek fan, Sue also delighted in decorating her home for every occasion, filling each season with color and fun.

She was known for her warm hugs, playful growl and unforgettable sense of style. She would always arrive in animal prints or bright, cheerful outfits that reflected her vibrant personality. She loved animals dearly and cherished the companionship of her dogs, Monday, Patty and Emmie. Adventurous at heart, Sue was always willing to try something new at least once.

She is survived by her brother, James (Cynthia) Mieling; her niece, Lindsey (Michael) Oriole; her niece, Sara (John) Upton; and her great-nieces, Claire and Zoey Upton. She was preceded in death by her parents, Wilbert and Lorraine Mieling. She will be deeply missed by her family, friends and all who knew her.

Visitation Friday, September 26, 2025 from 10 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. at Oehler Funeral Home, 2099 Miner Street, Des Plaines, IL. Celebration of Life to follow at 1:00 p.m. Committal Ridgewood Memorial Park, Des Plaines. In lieu of flowers, memorial donations may be made to Kay’s Animal Shelter in Arlington Heights, IL. For more info, call (847) 824-5155.

Farr Tuttle and Beulah Ruch

If you will remember I posed back in September, 2024 regarding the Rudes family reunion.  If you'll recall there were two people I was trying to identify.  They were Beulah Rush and Farr Tuttle.  Today I return to make my theory official.  

First, lets touch on Farr Tuttle.   He is by far the easiest to connect.  I found an obituary for Avis Aurilla Rudes in The Blade dated March 8, 1947.  The obituary lists her as survived by her brothers, Fred & Farr Tuttle.  Farr died in Miami, Florida in December of 1955.  

Where It Fits: Avis Tuttle Rudes was the wife George Adelbert Rudes having married him in December of 1880.  Together they have at least 10 children which survived her but possibly more as I am still attempting to clarify all the names and nicknames.  

Beuah Ruch is harder to figure out.  I've identified her I'm fairly confident but I've found no connection to the Rudes' so possibly there as a girlfriend or just a friend of the family along for the ride?  There seems to be more than one Beulah Ruch but the article clearly stated she was from Luckey, Ohio and one of the Beulah's mentions Luckey in almost every article which made it exceptionally easy for me to track her down.  I wish everybody was as considerate with their paper trail.  Anyway, Beulah Ruch was born May 19, 1909 in Luckey, Ohio  She was the daughter of Adam Ruch and Louise Hotmer.  On July 23, 1926 she married Harold Kern and they were married 73 years before he passed.  She died in October of 2001.  

Wait, what?!

 Sometimes living in a small town/county is really fun.  Everything sort of folds in on its each other and you can see just exactly how small of a world it can be.  For example, I was looking for something entirely unrelated and found this article about a poem De Ila wrote when she was 14.  Take a look and see if you can spot what I found.  

That's right!  That's my momma in the "10 Years Ago" column.  Who would have expected to find De Ila and Kymberly side by side in 1968?  

Source: The above articles were taken from the News Herald, March 4, 1968; Page 6.  

Where it fits: De Ila is the daughter of Merrill Basil Rudes, Jr. & Mary Caroline "Mary Cary" Leutz.  Kymberly Allen is the daughter of Richard Walter Allen & Joyce Elaine Johannsen.  Or in short, my mother and my paternal aunt who wouldn't meet for at least another 10 years.    

Runaway Auto

 RUNAWAY AUTO HITS ELECTRIC LIGHT POLE 

Driveless Car Performs Capers On Street Here 

The old duty of a patrolman to stop a runaway house was changed to stopping a runaway car of Patrolman Christ Schlmeyer last night. 

William Johannsen of Port Clinton was attempting to crank an ancient and wheezy type of car known as a "Lizzie" 10 or 15 years ago on Columbus-av just south of Market-st.  The crank locked.  Johannsen was attempting to jump up and down on the crank.

"Try putting it in gear and shaking the car", Schlmeyer, who had evidently had some experience with that type of car, shouted in encouragement from his corner at the southwest corner of Columbus-av and Market-st. 

Whether Johannsen did that or not, it started with no driver and Mrs. Johannsen and a child in the front seat.  

The car slowly picked up speed traveling north on Columbus-av without a drive with Johannsen trying to stop it from in front by shoving against the radiator.  Between times he shouted for Mrs. Johannsen to stop it.  But Mrs. Johannsen didn't know how to stop it,  Johannsen tried to shout instructions to her but the car was gaining too much speed and he had to jump from in front of it. 

Sehlmeyer rushed out to give aid.  But before he could do much the car plunged over the curb at the northeast corner of Columbus-av and Market-st, struck an electric light pole, veered off and then crashed into a parked machine.  There it stopped.  None was injured.  The car had traveled about 300 feet.   

The above article was taken from the Sandusky Register from March 14, 1935.  I am equal parts amused and horrified.  It originally strikes me as rather funny to have ones car take off on them simply because nobody was hurt other than I'm sure some broke prides.  I can't imagine how terrifying it would be to have the car I'm in with my child take off on its own and possibly run my husband over before getting into a car accident.  It seems like a wild course of events that a person couldn't make up even if they tried.  I hope they had several good laughs about it after they calmed down.  

Where it fits: William Johannsen is the son of Julius Johannsen and Caroline Japsen.  He was married to Kizzie Ethel McMurray and together they had Sue, Betty, William and Thomas.  

Rudes Family Reunion

 ANNUAL REUNION VERY PLEASANT; RUDES REUNION IS WELL ATTENDED 

The second annual reunion of the Rudes family was held at the old homestead, Maple Grove Farm, Sunday, Aug. 2d.  The 1926 reunion will be held at the same place.  A bounteous picnic dinner and supper was served on tables under the maples.

Forty-six members of the family were present: Mr. and Mrs. G.A. Rudes, Fred Rudes and Avis Rudes of Helena, Mr. and Mrs. L. C. Rudes and two children of Port Clinton, Mr. and Mrs. Harry Rudes, Mr. and Mrs. M.B. Rudes and two children, Mr. and Mrs. R. S. Rudes and three children, Mr. and Mrs. Verne Rudes and son Charles, all of Genoa, Mr. and Mrs. E. H. Rudes and three children of Toledo, Mr. and Mrs. Will Hessman, three sons and daughter Elda of Luckey, Mr. and Mrs. Lester Martin and two children of Fostoria, Mr and Mrs F. Weber and two children of Woodville, Miss Helen Whittaker of Akron, Mr. R. C. Rudes and Miss Minnie Rudes, also two guests, Miss Beulah Ruch of Luckey and Mr. Farr Tuttle of Cleveland. 

The men enjoyed quoits and indoor baseball with music and games for the younger people.  

The above is an article from The Genoa Gazette on 7 August 1925.  It was front page news!  I love little articles like this for several reasons but first let's see if we can figure out who all the 46+ people are and how they are related.  

• Mr. & Mrs. G. A. Rudes - Nothing like starting out with a fun one.  There are two G.A. Rudes' and both were married at the time.  I am assuming this is George Adelbert Rudes (1862-1934) and Avis Tuttle (1862-1947).  George would be the son of George Rudes and Louisa Baxter.
• Fred Rudes - This would be Fred Tuttle Rudes born in 1907.  He is the son of George Rudes & Avis Tuttle.  
• Avis Rudes - This might be a double listing as of right now I only know of 2 Avis Rudes'.  One is the wife of G.A. Rudes and one is their granddaughter via E.H. who is possibly listed with her fathers family so I will need to do more digging on this one.  
• Mr. & Mrs. L.C. Rudes & 2 children - I think this is Lester Rudes (1887 - 1942) and Lucy Sampson (1891-1976).  They had Robert & Margaret before 1925.  Lester is the son of Heselton Rudes & Fanny Butheway.   
• Mr. & Mrs. Harry Rudes - I'm fairly confident that this is Cecil Harold Rudes (1887-1951) & his wife, Minnie Arndt (1888-1948).  Cecil regularly went by Harry and is the son of Carlos Rudes & Lillie Hatch.  
• Mr. & Mrs. M.B. Rudes & 2 children - I think this is the family of Merrill Basil Rudes (1890-1939) & Della Matilda Wilhelmina Meyer (1891-1963).  The two children would be Merrill Basil "June" Rudes (1920-1994) & George Rudes (1923-2007).  Merrill is the son of Carlos Rudes & Lillie Hatch.  
• Mr. & Mrs. R. S. Rudes & 3 children - I think this is the family of Raymond Sandwich Rudes (1895-1972) & Pearl Crossman (daughter of Charles Easton and Emma Crossman; 1895-1959).  At the time the children would have been Mary (1920-2003), Raymond (1921-1985) and Kathleen (1923-1929).  Raymond is the son of Carlos Rudes & Lillie Hatch.  
• Mr. & Mrs. Verne & Charles - This is Verne Rudes (1891-1970) and Mildred Belle Schroder (1894-1969).  To my knowledge Charles is their only child, born in 1914 he died in a car accident in 1932.  Verne is the son of Heselton Rudes & Fanny Butheway.  
• Mr. & Mrs. E. H. Rudes & 3 children - I am thinking this is Emery Harold Rudes and his wife, Johanna.  In the 1930 census their children are Avis, Delbert & Emery Jr.  I will be digging a little deeper to see if there are two Avis Rudes' or if she was just listed twice.  Emery is the son of George Rudes & Avis Tuttle.  
• Mr. & Mrs. Will Hessman & 3 sons & Elda - William Hessman married Alice Rudes.  Alice was the daughter of George Rudes & Avis Tuttle.  They had four sons and all of them were born before this event so I'm not sure which ones were in attendance but you have Willard (b. 1907), Lowell (b 1913), Ross (b. 1916) and Robert Claire (b. 1922).  Elda was born in 1908 and later became Mrs. Forrest Wight.  
• Mr. & Mrs. Lester Martin & 2 children - Lester Martin married Esther Rudes.  Esther is the daughter of George Rudes & Avis Tuttle.  The children should be Lois & Gerald with Jane being born sometime in 1925.  
• Mr. & Mrs. F. Weber & 2 children - This would be Franz Weber and Inez Rudes.  To my knowledge they only had 2 children total, Thornton Weber (1917-2004) and Marian (later Mrs. Kesler; 1921-2010).  Inez is the daughter of George Rudes & Avis Tuttle.  
• Helen Whittaker - Helen is the daughter of Albert Whittaker & Metta Rudes.  I am attempting to location more information.  She would be the granddaughter of George Adelbert Rudes & Avis Tuttle.  She was listed as Mrs. Helen Wilson in her fathers obituary however that has been almost as fun as a Smith or Jones to track.  
• R. C. Rudes - I am going to assume this is Roy Castle Rudes (1874-1945).
• Minnie Rudes is the daughter of George Rudes and Louisa Baxter. She was born September 2, 1864 in Genoa, Ottawa, Ohio and died May 22, 1939 in Clay Township, Ohio and to my knowledge was never married.
• Beulah Ruch
• Farr Tuttle

I will work on seeing if Beulah and Farr end up fitting in here somewhere.  I am assuming Farr Tuttle is some relation to Avis Tuttle Rudes.  Some of this is just a rough draft or from the 1930 census as I have yet to follow some of these lines and some I'd never heard of until I found this article.  

So, now that I have them mostly assigned to families.  How are they all related?  They are all the descendants of George Rudes and Louisa Baxter.  G.A., Heselton (deceased), Carlos (deceased), Roy Castle and Minnie are the children.  Fred, Lester, Harry/Cecil, Merrill, Raymond, Verne, Emery, Alice, Esther and Inez all come from one of the above children.  You then obviously have various great-grandchildren.  Of the eight children of George and Louisa, 5 were there or had children there.  Metta, Amy and Bribner to the best of my knowledge never married or had children.  Neither Metta nor Am reached the age of 10 before their deaths.  

I look forward to seeing what I can learn about these families in the coming days (or years).  

Rudes hopes to remain probate judge

A New Year's baby is seeking re-election as Ottawa County's probate and juvenile judge.  Merrill B. Rudes, who has filled that post since February 1973, was born in Genoa, Jan. 1, 1920, the son of Merrill B. and Della Meyer Rudes.  His mother was a native of Clay Center. 

Married to the former Mary Carey Leutz, an Oak Harbor school teacher, Judge Rudes is father of four children.  He and Mrs. Rudes live on South River Road, Oak Harbor, with their pet cat "Nicki".

Judge and Mrs. Rudes are parents of Ms. Diane Windischman, family abuse coordinator for the prosecuting attorney in Lansing, Mich.; Merrill B Rudes, an electronics engineer in Chicago; Attorney Terrence Rudes, Oak Harbor, assistant Ottawa County prosecuting attorney, and DeIla Rudes, who is assistant administrator of the 500-bed Anderson, S.C. hospital.  There are also six grandchildren. children.  [sic]

Rudes' family has lived in Ottawa County many years.  His grandfather owned and operated a grocery store in Clay Center and his father operated the Ford agency in Genoa for many years. 

After graduation from Genoa High School, Judge Rudes attended Ohio State University and won his doctor of jurisprudence degree at the University of Toledo Law School in 1955, the same year he was admitted to the Ohio State Bar.

Before that, Merrill B Rudes owned and operated the Rudes Grocery Story [sic] in Clay Center for 10 years, was co-manager with his brother George of the Nick Stevens Motor Sales in Genoa, and was editor of the Woodville News for a year. 

For six years after becoming a lawyer, he was a partner in the law firm of Rosentreter and Rudes in Oak Harbor.  Judge Rudes first bore that title after he was elected judge of Port Clinton Municipal Couty and served in that capacity from November 1961 to February 1973. 

Elected judge of the Ottawa County probate and juvenile court, he has been on that bench since February 1973.  He has received six Ohio Supreme Court awards for superior judicial service during those years and served several years on the executive committee of the Ohio Municipal Judge's

With nearly 17 years of experience as a judge, Rudes seeks re-election on the basis of his lengthy experience, his background and his proven qualifications.  Lookwood Zeis is his campaign manager, and Zeis and his committee workers are conducting an active campaign throughout the county for Rudes' re-election. 

Rudes served four years in the 90th Infantry Division during World War II, and rose from private to captain.  He served 20 months in the European theater, from the Normandy invasion to Czecho-Slovakia.  He was recalled from 10 months during the Korean conflict, and served as a troop commander at Camp Atterbury, Ind. 

An active member of the Oak Harbor American Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars Posts, Rudes has served as past post and county council VFW commander.  He also is always on duty to help prepare and serve the Memorial Day breakfasts and the Armistice Day stews at the Legion post.  

Source: "Rudes hopes to remain county probate judge," News Herald, 30 October 1978, Front page, whole bottom.

 

**UPDATE** The Wives of Oscar Leutz

 Two updates in two days?!  My goodness I must be on a roll or something.  And oddly enough it is on the same topic as yesterday.  If you will recall I was attempting to sort out the four known wives of Oscar Leutz.  Today I confirmed Uncle Bob once again.  Oscar's marriage to Bertha Woods was in fact very short lived.  They were married December 28, 1920 and were divorced in October, 1921.  As found in the newspaper announcing the separation...

In the case of Oscar Leutz vs. Bertha A. Leutz, Judge Wierman has granted a divorce to the plaintiff on the grounds of gross neglect of duty, and the defendant divested of all property rights of plaintiff by way of dower or otherwise, and defendant has been restored to her maiden name Bertha Woods.  

 

**UPDATE** The Wives of Oscar Leutz

I have new information regarding Oscar Leutz and his four wives.  If you need a refresher, the previous update can be found here.  I have recently come across some information regarding wife #1, Myrtle Long.  In fact I have a fair bit of information thanks to a very beautifully written obituary. 

Death of Mrs. Oscar Leutz 

Mrs. Myrtle Long Leutz, second daughter of Mr and Mrs. Edwin Long, of Toledo, was born near Elmore, January 1st, 1888, was married to Oscar Leutz, Dec. 10th, 1904, and died at her home in Oak Harbor, on Oct. 12th, 1907, after an illness of only one day.  She leaves a husband, son, father, mother, two sisters and two brothers, besides a host of other relatives and friends, to mourn her untimely departure.  

Very early in life, she united with the Second Baptist church of Toledo and remained a faithful member of that organization.  She was a member of the Christian Sunday School, of Oak Harbor, also of the Ladies' Aid society of that church. 

The funeral, Tuesday, was from the Christian church, conducted by the pastor, Rev. C. L. Morrison.  The floral emblems were numerous and beautiful, mutely testifying of the love of the living for the dead. 

The fair young mother with her infant daughter, which died at birth, resting peacefully on her quiet breast, was indeed a touching sight, and the large concourse of sympathizing friends mingled their tears with those of the desolate husband.  Only the tender, softening hand of Time, and the hope to "Some day greet with pleasure, the dear ones waiting there," can console him. 

Extra special shout out to Uncle Bob who thought she'd died in child birth with her son, Ivan.  The dates didn't line up but I just assume Uncle Bob didn't know she'd had another baby, especially so close to the birth of her son.  The babies were about 1 year and 7 months apart.  What a tiny little fella to lose his momma.  Also, for those of you that didn't do the math, Oscar married Myrtle when she was 16 and buried her at 19.  I'm so glad to finally be able to add more information regarding this young woman to the tree and help her short life be remembered in some fashion.   

Where it fits:  Oscar Leutz is the son of Gustav and Mary (Washa) Leutz.  This makes him the brother of Leon Leutz who was the father of Mary Cary (Leutz) Rudes.    

The Dumond Families

Ithaca’s Reputed First Settlers Were Peter Hinepaugh and Isaac Dumond, Settling Here in 1788

 

Some five years ago certain errors were made in giving a sketch of the beginnings of Ithacan history and though they did not materially affect the values in the subsequent series of events still they warrant correction.  These errors were largely due at the time to the disparity in the narrative then available.  Recently much more material has come to hand so that the story as give here, as amended, is as nearly correct as it is possible to make it after this lapse of events of nearly a century and a half.

 

By DR. LUZERNE COVILLE

 

Briefly stated, it was in the spring of 1788, for the nights were still uncomfortably cool, that Robert McDowell and seven others started from Kingston, Pennsylvania, on a tour of the wild lands that lay in the lake country about the heads of Seneca and Cayuga lakes.  The exploring company was made up in the main of officers and soldiers of the Revolutionary War.  Four were in horses and four afoot.  They started out along the old Sullivan trail from Chemung and spent their first night at Kathrene’s Town (Montour) and pushed on past the head of Seneca Lake to Peach Orchard (Hector).  They there turned east and picked up the head waters of the Halsey Creek (Taughannock) followed to its mouth at Goodwin’s (Taughannock) Point.  Camping there upon Cayuga Lake for the night, they started south the next day, keeping well to the high ground and thereby avoiding the deep cross ravines and gullies.  They emerged from the forest trail at last, upon a shoulder high up above the lake corner.

 

There below, spread out in the morning sunshine, lay the great flats extending for miles, covered with grass and nearly treeless, filling the whole valley’s bottom and framed by the darker green if the oaks and pines of the sturdy forest growth.  Across to the east was the “great falls”, pouring its flood of water into the creek below Midway the valley ran the inlet, and about a mile up, where a branch from the each joined it, they found a fording place.

 

Camped at Buttermilk

 

They explored the lands and streams on the east and south sides of the valley and finally make their camp for the night under a tree at the falls three miles south (Buttermilk) “to avoid as far as possible the multitude of gnats that infested the place”.  They spent three more days here, mainly investigating the reaches above the flats.  They then left for home via Cayuth Lake and Kathrene’s, having met only the two men at Peach Orchard and the two at Kathrene’s.  They were absent about 10 days.

In the late June or early July of the same year, 1788, McDowell returned here with five companions, equipped with flour from Wyoming and corn-meal from Tioga Mill, with ropes and implements, horses and two cows, and proceeded to cut and cure hay.  The wild grass was lush and they were able in about six weeks to “sweep” and stack upon the high ground from both sides of the inlet some 60 or more tons of hay, railed against depredation and stacked for us in winter feeding of the cattle that they proposed to drive in that fall.  While at the haying they were joined by two men, Peter Hinepaugh and Isaac Dumond, part of a scouting party of 11 men who had come from Kingston, N.Y. with two Delaware Indians as guides.

 

Returned to Chemung

 

These people all returned to the Esopus after a month’s absence without making any choice of land.  The McDowell party went back to Chemung in August but sent back three of their number in October with 70 head of horses and cattle for wintering here.  They built a long cabin and shelters for the cattle on the high ground at the head of the flats, some three miles up the valley.  Of their number two returned to Chemung in February in two feet of snow on snowshoes made for them by Peter Hinepaugh.  On the way they broke their compass and were lost in a blizzard and freeze near Cayuta Lake for five days, without food, but were finally able to find they way downstreak to Shepard’s and out.  After an absence of six weeks these two returned from their home visit to spend the rest of the winter here at the log cabin (near to Puff’s tavern).

 

The Delaware people, Dumond and Hinepaugh, returned here in December or January presumably determined to make their homes upon these Cayuga flats, and erected two or three cabins, that of Hinepaugh being upon the high land at the Mill Creek (Cascadilla), that of the Yaples’ upon the foot of the hill just south of the creek, and the Dumonds’ still farther south near Six-Mile Creek.  They later in the spring planted their corn and their crops of wheat, rye, barley and peas on their share of the old Indiana (corn) fields, lon since abandoned.  And then leaving behind them ma young brother, John Yaple, an unmarried man, to guard their property they returned for their families at Cook House and Pakatakan on the Pepacton.

 

Brought Daughter Here

 

In the spring of 1789 Richard McDowell.  In later years spoken of and addressed as Squire McDowell, came here in company with his daughter, Jane, aged eight, together with a white lad of 12 years and a Negro boy.  Putting up temporarily a bark cabin, Indian0fashioned, he planted on the old Indiana fields his corn and sowed his spring wheat and built a log cabin (traditionally upon the property that is now 114 West Buffalo Street) thereby establishing his plantations on the site of or near the old court house.  Later in the season he removed here his family from Chemung, comprising his wife, Margaret, three daughters and two sons.  He erected the further farm buildings needed and that fall gathered his first crop.

 

Peter Dumond of Hurley, (IV), son of Igenas (III), sonof Jan Baptiste (II), son of Wallerand (Wolron) Dumond (I), was born in or about 1730.  The earliest of the Dumond ancestry here was a certain Wallerand DuMond, a Huguenot, who at Wildtwick (Kingston, N.Y.) in 1664, married (Margaret) Hendricks, the widow of Jans Arentsen from Wie, near Zwolle, in Swtzerland [sic].  The wife of Jan Baptiste DuMond was Neeltje Van Veghten, whose grandfather came here in 1636 with his wife, children and 12 servants.  The wife of Igenas DuMond was Catharine Schuyler, whose ancestry runs back two generations to David Schuyler of colonial Albany, and to the aristocratic Ver Plancks of New Amsterdam.

 

Peter DuMond (IV) together with his brother Harmonus DuMond and two other men, Johannes Van Wagenen and ______ Hendricks, formed an exploring party up the Delaware valley in the fall of 1762 and spring of 1763 and located in the Indian settlement of Paghatakan (Arkville) where they each purchased farms.  These four pioneer families were the first permanent colony on the east branch of the Delaware River.

 

Married in 1572

 

Peter DeMond married in September, 1752, Maria Can Wagenen of Kingston, by whom he had six children born at Hurley and baptized at Kingston.  Four of these children comprise “the early Dutch settlers of Ithaca”.  In that year of 1789, Catharine, the oldest daughter, married to Peter Hinepaugh, was 35 years of age and had five children, the oldest of whom was 12 years of age.  Isaac DuMond, aged 31 yearss [sic], had married in 1784 Sallie Barrows (Berro) of Hurley and had three children.  Mond, aged 31 years, had married Jacob Yaple and had three children.  John, 26, married in July, 1789, Jane Barrows (Berro just before leaving Paghatakan.  There remained on the farm the sons, Igenas, aged 36, and Jacobus, aged 28, twhere their descendants still remain.

 

Hinepaw was an older half brother of the Yaples.  The name of the mother was Susannah Cisco and it is recorded that she was born in Holland. Her early home in America may have been near Kingston as the name is not uncommon there.  She married about 1758 Henry Yaple and they had at least three sons, all born in what is now Lebanon County, Pa.  It is also a curious thing that in 1795 Hinepaugh is signing his name to documents in good clear German-English script as Pieder Heimbach.

 

This is the first of two articles on the subject of the Dumond Families.  The second will appear Monday. 

Where it fits:  The Dumond family are the direct ancestors of my grandfather, Richard Allen via his mother Helen Stoner, her mother Laura Etta Jopp, her father Miller Jopp, his mother Mary Dumond/DuMond, to her father John Dumond/DuMond, to Peter/Petrus, Igenas, Johannes Baptist and ultimately Wallerand.  

Source: The Ithaca Journal, March 2, 1935, Page  3. via Newspapers.com (https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-ithaca-journal-dumond-family-per-ith/9822835/ : accessed October 25, 2023), clip page for DuMond Family per Ithaca Journal, March 02, 1935 by user kcnm4davis

War on the Homefront

The clip was taken from the Richmond Enquirer on March 13, 1838.  I am thinking this is an update on the Patriot War.  

A Case of Mistaken Marriage

The Gazette out of Lexington, Virginia dated Thursday, February 2, 1860 has this shocking story on the front page. 

 The Lynchburg Daily Virginian has a similar account they shared on January 27, 1860 via Chicago.

I, being the curious/nosy, person I am checked the Ottawa County, Ohio marriage records for December 1859 and January, 1860 and found only five marriages (Harmon Anglebeck & Nancy Wonnell; John Schmardcheck & Anna Schroder; Henry Snider & Abigail Knight; John Stewart & Rhoda Moore; Joel Labeen & Hester Vellequett) but none of them are listed as having filed for divorce.  I let you know if I ever figure out who they are because I'm crazy curious to see what happened to them.  I can't believe somebody actually did that.  Good grief!!  

Jopp Family Bible

 While I was looking for something entirely unrelated I stumbled upon a list of family Bible's currently in possession of the Hayes Presidential Center.  On the list was Stoner and Jopp.  I called, asked some questions and received scanned copies of both!  JACKPOT!  Sadly at this time I don't know where the Stoner family fits with our Stoners but the Jopp was a home run.  Below are the pages I received.  

Unfortunately some of this is hard to read and in the true motherly fashion she listed each and every one of her babies and nothing about herself or her husband.  However from this we can see that the Bible was printed in 1813 and gifted to Mary Jopp in 1815.  At this time I believe they were still living in New York and the other records I have show them coming to Ohio in 1831.  You can also spot some fun spellings such as "Munday" and a gift being one word.  If anybody can make out the information on Luas Elbert that would be wonderful but I'm going cross eyed trying.   

Where it fits:  Due to the inscription reading "agift give to Mary Jopp by. . . " I believe this is the Bible of Mary Jopp and probably by proxy her husband Daniel.  Together they are the parents of Orin, Betsey, Isaac, Sally, Jerusha, Elbert, Luther, Miller, Eliza Jane, Wealthy Ann (spelled Welthyan in the Bible) and Hudson.  Miller Jopp married Augusta Horton and together they were the parents of Laura Etta.  Laura Etta married David Stone and was the mother of Helen Naomi Stoner.  Helen married Dale Allen and they were the parents of LaDonna, Donald, Ralph "Jim" James, Richard, Thomas, Virginia, Robert, Carol & Margaret.  

P.S. if you can tell who gifted her the Bible I'd also appreciate that.  Tim and I are betting it's a misspelling of Priest Parker.  

The Port Clinton Lighthouse

 

In January of 1831 Port Clinton, Ohio was but a baby city having only been founded in 1828 yet in the "CONGRESS" section of the Virginia Free Press & Farmers' Repository in February, 1831 they announced there had been a resolution to built a light house in Port Clinton.  Upon some minor research (okay, okay, I Googled) I discovered that this isn't the lighthouse currently standing in Port Clinton but its predecessor.   The small lighthouse currently standing was built in 1896 and while the government isn't necessarily known for its speed this is most likely in regards to the stone lighthouse built in 1833.  Like I said the government isn't known for speed but two years is better than sixty-five.  😀  The original article can be found here and more information on both light houses complete with pictures of the beautiful stone light house can be found here.

Money Goes Missing

This little gem was found in the Lynchburg Daily Virginian and was published on March 22, 1856 meaning the robbery probably took place on or about March 15, 1856.  That amount of money would be over $250,000 worth in today's money.  At some point I might need to dig through the local newspapers and see what comes of any of these cases.  

The original publication can be found here and was considered worthy of the front page.  

Cornerstone of a Courthouse

 

This clipping was in the Norfolk Landmark, Vol. 48, No. 110 published on May 16, 1899.  The entire construction period of the courthouse was from 1898 to 1901.  More information on the courthouse can be found here.  The entire edition of the Norfolk Landmark can be found here.  Grandma Allen (Joyce Johannsen Allen) always said that presidents visited frequently and it wasn't usual to see them out and about.  Now I'm curious to see if I can find any more references.  I know the Island House claims that multiple presidents have stayed there including President James Garfield, President Rutherford B. Hayes and President William Howard Taft.  They also have an extensive list of celebrities that have stayed there.  

Port Clinton Lutheran Church

As some of you might know I LOVE hunting through church records to see what goodies they have in regards to birth, marriage and death records but some also have family registers or track membership and communion recipients so you can narrow down when a family moved into the area.  They also have baptism and confirmation records that often prove helpful with the added bonus of a lot of churches took pictures of their confirmation classes.  Apparently the new church building was a big deal as this is found in the "Our Church Paper", December 4, 1895.  

   

Further source: "Our Church Paper", Volume 23, Number 51 published in New Market, Shenandoah County, Virginia.  The full edition can be found here.

State of the Tree

 I have been slowly attempting to rebuild my tree from the roots up and have been enjoying a whole new world of resources.  It is amazing how many new resources have joined the world since I first started hunting however many years ago that was.  (I refuse to admit I've been doing this for over 20 years).  That being said in my reconstruction attempts I found a whole slew of very cool Port Clinton articles on the Virginia Chronicle website as well as some interesting reads on family so hopefully over today or the next several days I'll be flooding this page with the articles I've found.  Some might be family, some might be distant family and some might be just something I found interesting but as always I will attempt to make it clear exactly where they fit and how.  I hope you enjoy reading them as much as I have enjoyed finding and sharing them! 

Leutz family papers

Last Tuesday I received a message from Mariah informing me they had found some documents and she was wondering if I was interested.  I replied with my address and like magic I received some very exciting mail today and I have jumped right on to share it with you.  So, without further delay I give you a passport and two baptism certificates.  

Am I the only one looking at his height listed as 6' 1" and thinking that for this time frame the man was a giant?  

This isn't the original-original baptism record but it is a certified copy of her baptism record which at the time also served as a birth certificate.  It would also be used to help gain membership to a parish wherever they ended up.

The documents came with both transcribed copies and full on translations if anybody is interested I can share those as well.  Thank you so much Mariah! 

Where It Fits: Johann & Louisa are the parents of Carl, Gustav, Charles, Luisa & Clara.  They are the grandparents of Oscar, Myrtle, Lorenz, Leon, Berlin, Clara, Edward, Emery, William, Edith, Esther and Fred Leutz & Omah, Homer, William, Ada, Luella, Maud and Clara Bisch.  

A picture of the couple can be found here: https://photographsandmysteries.blogspot.com/2010/03/update-fredrick-frederica-leutz.html

Are you my Octave?

 I might have had a break through in a long standing brick wall.  From the time I started hunting down my ancestors I've had a brick wall at Octave Debo.  He just wouldn't budge.  He and his family were surrounded by various leads and none of them lead to productive records.  Let me lay out his timeline for you and we'll see if my brick wall just came tumbling down.  

• In the 1870 census Mr. Octage (yes, it lists him as Octage) Debo is living in Townsend Township, Sandusky County, Ohio.  His age is recorded as 54 and he is living with his wife, Jane; and his children, Edward, William, Ella, Leon & E. Albert.  He lists his birth place as Canada.  
• In the 1880 census Mr. O. Debo is living in Townsend Township, Sandusky County, Ohio.  He lists his age as 69 and he is living with his wife, Jane; and sons, William, Leon and Albert.
• In the 1900 census Mr. Octave Debo is living in Townsend Township, Sandusky County, Ohio.  He lists his date of birth as July, 1823 and his age at 76.  He is living with Jane, his wife of 48 years and he claims to have been born in Canada while both parents are listed as born in France.  
• In his obituary in 1904 it says he was 79 years of age and all other useful clues are left out as it was a short obituary with little to no useful genealogical significance.  

This gives us a birth year for Octave as 1816, 1811, and July 1823/1824.  I say July 1823/1824 as his age says 1824 but the document says July, 1823.  The 1904 obituary puts his birth year about 1825 so I'm going to say 1823-1825 is a good guess.  Now, let's take a little visit to the cemetery.  Tew Cemetery to be exact.  

This says Octave Debo was born July 6, 1824.  His obituary has the same date of death and mentions him dying at his daughters house, my direct ancestor, so I know this to be the correct man.  He is buried beside Geneva and they have matching headstones but we will get to her some other time.  Finally things are starting to come together.  After banging around on this brick wall and taking breaks and coming back to it a couple of different times I more or less gave up.  Family lore says they lived in the Saint Lawrence River Region.  There were mentions of reservations and I'd found Debo's in the register for the Mohawks but I haven't been able to get anywhere.  So on a whim I posted on a Facebook group, Genealogy Addicts Anonymous, just to see if anybody there could lend any insight to search in the area (New York is notoriously hard to get anything out of and this could also be in Canada, especially with the French name).  Enter Dawn Duncan.  She replied almost instantly with this....

The cited source is Institut Genealogique Drouin; Montreal, Quebec, Canada; Drouin Collection, Author: Gabriel Drouin, comp.  However, neither Dawn nor I speak French.  So off to another Facebook group, Genealogical Translations, where Barbara Poniewierski and Jocelyn Cote jumped in with a translation for us.  This is a baptism record for Michel Octave DuBeau.  "6 July 1824, we baptized at Quebec Michel Octave Dueau, born today of the legitimate marriage of Francois Dubeau, day laborer, and Marie Gingras of this town.  Godfather Michel Tessier, esquire, godmother Miss Henriette Viller, signed below, the father having declared that he did not know how."  Michel Octave DuBeau was born and baptized te same day as Octave Debo.  In the same region.  Could this possibly be my mystery man?!  All the trees I've attempted to cross reference with Francois DeBeau & Marie Gingras have no son Michel nor Octave listed.  I can find no death record for the baby, which is rare since they usually are baptized on the same day of birth only if there is a belief that the baby will soon pass.  It is very possible that Michel Octave DuBeau and Octave Debo are one and the same.  IF Michel & Octave are the same person than Dawn also supplied me with another three or four generations.  Mercy!  So do you think Octave and Michel are the same man?  Let me know in the comments or zap me a message.  I'm curious for any advice that can be offered.  I'll keep you posted as I find new documentation.  

Rachel Lee (Taylor) Myers (1942-2020)

 

CASTALIA — Rachel Lee Myers, 78, of Castalia, passed away on Saturday, Sept. 26, 2020, after suffering a stroke.

Rachel was born on March 5, 1942, to Elizabeth and William Taylor in Lacarne, Ohio.

After graduating from Oak Harbor High School in 1960, she went on to graduate from Stautzenberger College in 1961. She took her first position at Periodical Publishers, then worked for the Plumbers Union and later was employed as the high school secretary at Perkins High School, where she retired after 31 years of service to the district.

During this time, Rachel also was an active member of the Educational Office Professionals of Ohio (EOPO) and served as president for two years.

In 1959, Rachel met Terry Myers, and they were married in Monroe, Michigan, in 1960. They lived two years in Kentucky while Terry was in the Army and then returned to Ohio.

Terry and Rachel have two married children, Phillip (Tana) Myers and Debbie (Jim) Roderick. Rachel and Terry also have four granddaughters, Makenna and Keeleigh Myers, both of Columbus, Morgan Roderick of Boston and Marissa Roderick, who is attending Eastern Kentucky College.

Rachel spent much time enjoying her family cocker spaniels, Maxx, for 15 years and Maxine for the last 10 years, walking them daily. Rachel enjoyed boat rides with Terry when Terry wasn’t fishing. Lunches with her girlfriends were weekly, and she and Terry played cards with their friends on a regular basis.

Rachel was a devoted member of Grace Lutheran Church in Castalia. At Grace, Rachel was involved in the contemporary music program with high school students, taught Sunday School, attended Bible Study and was a member of Circle 5.

Rachel was preceded in death by her parents and her sister Carol Merrick. She is survived by her husband Terry, her children and grandchildren, her sister Lorna (Don) Noble, sister Ann (Jim) Dickerson and brother Bill (Jane) Taylor.

Visitation will take place 4-7 p.m. Tuesday, Sept. 29, 2020, from at Ransom Funeral & Cremation Service, 610 South Washington St., Castalia. Masks and social distancing will be required.

A private funeral service will be held at Ransom Funeral & Cremation Service on Wednesday, Sept. 30, 2020. The Rev. Kathleen Suggitt of Grace Lutheran Church will be officiating. Interment will follow in the Lacarne Cemetery.

The family suggests that memorials may be made to Grace Lutheran Church 203 S. Washington St., Castalia, OH 44824 or Back to The Wild, PO Box 423, Castalia, OH 44824.

Condolences and gifts of sympathy may be shared with the family by visiting ransomfuneralhome.com

Charles H. Hatch

This post was started April 21, 2017 and just recently completed.  --Kate

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Don't think for a second that I've forgotten about the Rudes side of the family but sometimes you have to go where the fish are biting and lately that hasn't been the Rudes side.  However, today I came into the possession of an obituary for Charles Hatch.

Died

HATCH - At his late residence in Vanlue, O., on Saturday evening, Aug. 17, 1889, Mr. Charles H. H. Hatch , aged 53 years, 8 months and 1 day.

Mr. Hatch was born in the state of New York, December 13th 1835, and in early life being left fatherless, by death, he came with friends to Ohio, located in Crawfordsville, Wyandot county.  Here he was apprenticed to Cornelins [sic] Shaw, and learned the blacksmith trade.  After having finished his apprenticeship, on December 6, 1857, he married Miss Catherine Coontz, with whom he pleasantly lived to the day of his death.

In 1858, Mr. Hatch moved to Iowa, where he toiled and prospered till the breaking out of the war, when he sent his family back to friends in Ohio, and enlisted in the 3d Iowa cavalry for one year, obtained a furlough and came home and moved his family to Vanlue where he continued to reside until the day of his death.  After arraigning his affairs at home, he returned to his regiment, and faithfully served his country to the close of the war, and was honorable mustered out of service.  Since the war he has been engaged in saw mill and factory work in Vanlue and Findlay,  and it was in the pursuit of his daily labor, at the former place, that last Saturday morning he met with the frightful accident, necessitating the amputation of his arm from the shock which in the weakened condition of his general health, he died in the evening of the same day. 

Mr Hatch was the father of 9 children, 4 sons and 5 daughters of whom 2 sons and 4 daughters, with the mother, are left to mourn his loss. 

Mr. Hatch was a good citizen, and his absence will be felt in the village of Vanlue.  

The funeral took place from his late residence, on Tuesday morning, August 20th, the services and interment taking place at the Lee church.  A very large congregation of sympathizing neighbors and friends being present to contribute their compassion for the living, and their respect for the dead.  Rev. J. M. Dustman, of Bluffton, officiating.  The burial was conducted according to the beantiful (sic) ritual of the order of the I.O.O.F, of which fraternity he was an honored member.

According to the August 22nd news paper Mr. Hatch was at Fred Sutters saw mill on Saturday when he fell against a saw, cutting his arm off above the elbow.  Medical aid was immediately summoned and the injury dressed and he fell to shock that same evening.  He was only 53.

Where it fits: Charles was the father of Lillie Mae Hatch, wife of Carlos A. Rudes.  Together they are the parents of Merrill Basil Rudes (1890-1939) and seven sons in total (Earle, Ercell, Cecil Harold, Gail Carlton, Raymond Sandwich, Dewey Lee & Merrill Basil), grandparents of Merrill Rudes (1920-1994) & George Rudes (1923-2007).  

Laurie Dangler

I don't know why this was such a hard obituary to post.  We weren't particularly close yet for some reason each time I logged in to share I ended up backing out.  I kept hoping it would magically become easier but it hasn't yet I find that she needs to be here among her family.  Farewell Laurie.  

Laurie A. (Rudes) Dangler, M.D., age 48, died Saturday, June 1, 2019 at her home after a long battle with brain and breast cancer. She was born August 5, 1970 to Randolph and Paulette (Oberhaus) Rudes in Toledo Ohio.

While growing up outside Toledo, Laurie excelled in many activities including playing trumpet in her high school marching band, competitive horseback riding, and learning how to bake the best apple pies ever. She was known for her kind heart, strong work ethic, drive and determination. After graduating with honors from Genoa Area High School, Laurie went on to earn a Bachelor's Degree in Psychology, Cum Laude, from the University of Toledo, and her M.D. from The Ohio State University.

Laurie met the love of her life, Doug, in junior high school and they were married August 1, 1992 in Genoa, Ohio. Throughout their many years together, Laurie and Doug enjoyed participating in Volkswagen clubs throughout Ohio, traveling and a mutual love of music. Laurie and Doug raised two outstanding children, Rebecca and Evan, who Laurie loved deeply.

While training to run the Columbus Half Marathon in 2007, Laurie was diagnosed with brain cancer. She was determined to run again after treatment and formed ROC On! (Run Over Cancer), a charity that raised funds for brain cancer research. Laurie continued to run half-marathons after treatment for many years, inspiring many others to run and raise funds as well.

Laurie was also an excellent doctor who was adored by her patients. Laurie made friends easily wherever she went. Her loving spirit will be greatly missed by all who knew her.

Laurie is preceded in death by her parents, Randolph and Paulette Rudes. She is survived by her husband of 26 years, Doug; daughter, Rebecca; son, Evan; sisters Angela Jimerson, Abigail (Jeremy) King, Lindsey (Thomas) Milam; nephews Gregory, Nicholas and Timothy; and niece Sarah.

Services are listed below. In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions can be made to The Ohio State University Fund, ROC On Research Fund for Neuro-Oncology Center, Fund #313389 (www.giveto.osu.edu <http://www.giveto.osu.edu>).

**UPDATE #2** Little Brown Box

UPDATE #2:  If you would recall back in December, 2009 I told you about a little brown box I had discovered that contained the wedding pictures of George Rudes & Marian Bringe.  Let me refresh your memory on the mystery photograph in the box.  Below is a small section of the original post:

There were two pictures in the box that I couldn't identify. One was another wedding photograph. On the back I can't make out the first word but the rest is:

Jean
---------------------
Bristol England
--------------------
15/6/45

Now, since I was working on the confirmation picture tonight (yes, tonight.  You are getting updated as it happens so no lag time this time.)  I picked Merle Porter.  The name sounded familiar and I wasn't sure why.  It turns out that is the name of a famous photographer but as far as I can tell they aren't one in the same.  In that search I found his obituary, if you aren't interested in the whole thing you can read the highlighted part:

PORTER Merle Harrie 1919 - 2012 This man was not a physician or a millionaire or famous in any way...except to his family. This is a bit of his story. Merle Harrie Porter came into the world on January 26, 1919, and left it 93 years later on April 10, 2012. Born in Oberlin, OH, to Burton and Mabel (Kelly) Porter five years after his brother, Burton Durand, he lived most of his life in Genoa, OH excepting the last five years in Ludington, MI. As a boy visiting family back in Oberlin, he became a fan of the Cleveland Indians. He attended games at three different stadiums in Cleveland and after faithfully watching them on TV, saw his last game the evening before he died. After graduating from Genoa High School, he studied pharmacy at Toledo University, but left in 1942 to enter the Army of the United States and serve his country as a medic in Africa and Europe during WWII. It was in Bristol, England, that a local chap befriended him at a barber shop and, while stopping briefly at his new friend's home before going on to the pub, Merle spied his future bride. Twelve days after their meeting, Merle and Jean Boyce were engaged. After several failed leave attempts, they were finally wed in Bristol 3 years later on June 15, 1945, in a wedding that was planned in just two days. Upon return to civilian life, Merle went to work for Walding, Kinnan, and Marvin Co. becoming a pharmaceutical salesman. After retiring in 1981, he remained friends with many of the sales team, office staff, and pharmacists on whom he had called over the years. As a long time member of St. John's United Church of Christ, he served at various times on many committees, taught Sunday school, served as president of the congregation, His greatest joy was to sing in the choir that his father had directed at one time. He had a resonant, deep bass voice and sang for more than seventy-five years, becoming the longest serving choir member in church history. Merle also served on the Genoa village council and school board. Together the Porters raised six daughters, Donna (Jon) Fish, Barbara (Calvin) Wolcott, Gail (Larry) Moss, Sharon (Carl) Dietrich, Marilyn (Bob) London, and Kelly (Roger) Anderson. Through them, Merle and Jean were blessed with sixteen grandchildren, Cris, Jennifer, Ryan, Marty, Josh, Andy, Rachel, Matt, Kerrie, Mark, Chris, Casie, Julia, Megan, Jim, and Joe, and 22 1/2 great-grandchildren. Merle is survived by all of them, along with his sister-in-law Sara Porter and nieces and nephews in the US, Canada, England, and Australia. He was preceded in death by his parents; his brother; his wife of 52 years, and an infant grandson. Merle was well loved and well respected in his community. He had an infectious laugh that was loud enough to serve as a beacon for his children. He and Jean set an incredible example of marital love, which all of his family hold up as THE example of what marriage should be. He had a wonderful way with words. Letters written even as a teen show his wit and command of language. His letters to his Jean during the war are voluminous. At home in his later years, he stayed in contact via emails with many of his extended family members and friends. If you were the recipient of any of those mailings, it wasn't long before you realized that he retained his wonderful sense of humor, even after his physical abilities were greatly reduced. As Merle aged and became less able to care for himself, he was able to stay in his home with daughters close by, for which he and his family are very grateful. We wish to especially thank family members Barb and Cal Wolcott and Kelly and Roger Anderson for their loving and tireless attendance to him and Mom over the past 20 plus years. Merle's love of singing was passed on to his family, and those family voices, along with those of friends, will be lifted in celebration of his life at 2:00 p.m. on Sunday, April 22, 2012, with a dessert reception immediately following in the fellowship hall of St. John's United Church of Christ, 1213 Washington St. Genoa. If you wish to honor Merle's memory with a memorial donation, it would please the family if you would consider writing checks out to "Rachel Volschow" and send it c/o Robinson Walker Funeral Home 501 West St. Genoa, OH 43430. These will be used for Merle's beloved granddaughter's expenses in her ongoing battle with breast cancer. Thank You. Online condolences may be shared with the family at walkerfuneralhomes.com

Published in The Blade on Apr. 20, 2012  

June 15, 1945.  Jean.  I wonder what the chances are that the young man in the confirmation picture, the groom in this wedding picture and the older man below are all one and the same....

Penny for your thoughts on this one all y'all!  

Original post can be found in its entirety here: https://photographsandmysteries.blogspot.com/2009/12/update-little-brown-box.html

UPDATE: Confirmation?

UPDATE:  As you might recall I have been rebuilding my/our tree from the roots up.  This has lead to a number of new discoveries that I might have missed the first time around, weren't important, etc.  One of which was a document listing the home congregation of Della Meyer Rudes.  On a whim I emailed the church and a lovely lady by the name of Mary replied and offered to do some look ups and see if we can get some ducks in a row, especially in regards to this picture.  Ladies and gentleman, I give you the confirmation class of 1933 for St. John's Church in Genoa.  Below you will see Rev. Paul O. David with Donnabel M. Coleman (Ardner), Ruth E. David (Norwine), Alice L. Fondessy (Gleckler), Paul Gaul, William Hahn, Donald D. Lenz, Herbert E. Lorenzen, Leota M. Moritz (Dipman), Margaret C. Moritz (Holbrook), Merle H. Porter, and Merrill B. Rudes Jr.  Laurie had been right in calling out Merrill but the fourth from the left also looks familiar so now with the list of names maybe I can narrow down who he is and why he looks familiar.  

A nice Sunday mystery. This was taken at Northland Studio in Toledo, Ohio. There is no label saying who, what, when, or why. I am assuming it is a confirmation but I'm not sure.

Timeframe: The skirts are short enough that it is fairly safe to assume this was taken after 1908. Since all the girls have a bob cut, which didn't become popular until the 20's, this was taken after 1920. They started to get longer then the jaw length in the 30's and all these girls have the shorter bobs so I am guessing this was taken between 1920 & 1930.

Where It Fits: I don't know. Can you tell me?